Showing posts with label standing armies. Show all posts
Showing posts with label standing armies. Show all posts

12 January 2010

My Third Amendment rights have been violated!

One of the dumber arguments about the Second Amendment's importance is that it is Second. Using that logic, shouldn't the Third Amendment be pretty significant?

OK, quick, tell me what does the Third Amendment say? It was one of the Complaints that was mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. That should make it significant: shouldn't it???

And back to the "It's third in line" argument. Third place will get you a bronze medal in the Olympics as well as other awards. You can collect if your horse comes in third if you place a "show" bet, but you get paid the "show payoff" even if your horse comes in First.

Well, here it is:
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

You can find out how important the founders thought this Amendment was by going here.

They even have where this was mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, which also mentioned the issue of "Standing Armies".

So, the Third Amendment is not unrelated the Second Amendment which was intended to prevent a Federal Standing Army. I guess that means "the Third Amendment protects the Second" to rip off another stupid "gun rights" comment.

And Sorry, Gun Cretins or Gun Loons, but I HAVE read the history of the Second Amendment and related PRIMARY SOURCES to come to the conclusion that the Civic right interpretation is the correct one for the Second Amendment. But that's not my point here.

My point is that up until the 1930s, the Second and Third Amendments had the least Supreme Court Jurisprudence. Screw that, they HAVE the least Supreme Court Jurisprudence with 5 cases for the Second Amendment and NONE for the Third. Mostly because it's hard as heck to misinterpret the Third Amendment (unlike the Second).

Although, it provides a great justification for the "Castle Doctrine" using Story:
§ 1893. This provision speaks for itself. Its plain object is to secure the perfect enjoyment of that great right of the common law, that a man's house shall be his own castle, privileged against all civil and military intrusion. The billetting of soldiers in time of peace upon the people has been a common resort of arbitrary princes, and is full of inconvenience and peril. In the petition of right (3 Charles I.), it was declared by parliament to be a great grievance.
Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution 3:§ 1893

Actually, it's funny to read the primary sources on the Third Amendment, which really shouldn't be neglected: especially if you are going to argue the Civic Right Interpretation of the Second. This is because there IS a reason this is third, and it is related to the Second Amendment in that they both relate to the issue of standing armies and civilian control over the military, which was far more important that personal firearm ownership to the founders.

For more information on the History of the Third Amendment, try visiting:

* Tom W. Bell, The Third Amendment: Forgotten but Not Gone, 2 William & Mary Bill of Rights J. 117 (1993).
* Willaim S. Fields and David T. Hardy, The Third Amendment and the Issue of the Maintenance of Standing Armies: A Legal History, 35 Am. J. Legal Hist. 393 (1991).

I think you will find an aversion to the maintenance of Standing Armies and civilian control over the military are common threads in Anglo-American history along with the history of other British Colonies. As other former British Colonies show, there was no common law concept of "gun rights" outside of militia duty.

Actually, it has been pointed out to me that the Soldiers and Sailors Civil Relief Act (SSCRA) gives service members certain special rights to terminate leases without penalty as well as to avoid eviction. Qualifying service members can also have their mortgages modified to cap the interest at 6%. The SSCRA makes no provision for just compensation to be made to the private parties who suffer the costs of its provisions; effectively, the owners of the affected properties have to bear all the costs.

So, join in the efforts of the Third Amendment Center in protecting this most important of rights! Fight the Soldiers and Sailors Civil Relief Act (SSCRA)!

10 November 2009

The Army Can exercise it's Second Amendment right???

If you don't see how stupid this comment is, then you haven't read the actual primary source documents regarding the Second Amendment. Neither have you read or comprehended my posts where I discuss this. That's why you can come here and spout crap about me "not knowing my stuff".

Yeah, right, asshole.

The Second Amendment talks about a well regulated militia, which is a vastly different thing from the Army.

Army--Militia: They are two different institutions.

Again, I repeat that you don't understand the concept of the Second Amendment if you don't see how stupid that comment is.

This is why it doesn't need to be repealed, it needs to be understood.

“Whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins.”-Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, 1789

21 October 2009

Collective Right Anathema to freedom?

I would argue that the entire concept of a “collective” right is an anathema to freedom. Some please tell me what ‘collective right’ they have, and how they can assert it.

Well, Those who insisted the Second Amendment was included in the Bill of Rights had a well founded fear of standing armies. They knew how often standing armies, established in the name of defending against external enemies, had instead used the power with which they had been entrusted to enslave the very peoples they had pledged to protect. Those men of wisdom also recognized how the power of tyrants almost always required control over a standing army capable of imposing the tyrant's will on an unwilling populace. The Continental Congress had no intention of allowing the liberty they sought for Americans to be easily usurped - and they were also determined not to create the means for a tyrant to seize the reins of power from the people.

A large part-time people's army reduces the likelihood of war as members derive the great bulk of their income from civilian employment thus are less than enthusiastic about interrupting their civilian lives and careers by marching off to an unnecessary war, while many citizens are far less likely to support a war of aggression if it is likely a family member will have to fight it, factors which help explain Swiss neutrality and the fact that it has not fought a war in almost 500 years (not counting a very brief civil war in 1847 that did away with the last vestiges of feudalism). Being a member of a military organization promotes discipline, comradeship and self-reliance, which fosters social cohesion and an egalitarian, democratic mindset thanks to the mixing of people from different social classes and cultural groups who would otherwise have little if any close contact with each other.

You would find that the founders also would be in complete disagreement:

"Standing armies [are] inconsistent with [a people's] freedom and subversive of their quiet." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Lord North's Proposition, 1775. Papers 1:231

"It astonishes me to find... [that so many] of our countrymen... should be contented to live under a system which leaves to their governors the power of taking from them the trial by jury in civil cases, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of commerce, the habeas corpus laws, and of yoking them with a standing army. This is a degeneracy in the principles of liberty... which I [would not have expected for at least] four centuries." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1788. (*) FE 5:3

"The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force." --Thomas Jefferson to Chandler Price, 1807. ME 11:160

"The Greeks and Romans had no standing armies, yet they defended themselves. The Greeks by their laws, and the Romans by the spirit of their people, took care to put into the hands of their rulers no such engine of oppression as a standing army. Their system was to make every man a soldier and oblige him to repair to the standard of his country whenever that was reared. This made them invincible; and the same remedy will make us so." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. ME 14:184

"When a government wishes to deprive its citizens of freedom, and reduce them to slavery, it generally makes use of a standing army." -- Luther Martin, Maryland delegate to the Constitutional Convention
Mr. Gerry — This declaration of rights, I take it, is intended to secure the people against the mal-administration of the government; if we could suppose that in all cases the rights of the people would be attended to, the occasion for guards of this kind would be removed. Now, I am apprehensive, sir, that this clause would give an opportunity to the people in power to destroy the constitution itself. They can declare who are those religiously scrupulous, and prevent them from bearing arms. What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. Now it must be evident, that under this provision, together with their other powers, congress could take such measures ith respect to a militia, as make a standing army necessary. Whenever government mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins. This was actually done by Great Britain at the commencement of the late revolution. They used every means in their power to prevent the establishement of an effective militia to the eastward. The assembly of Massachusetts, seeing the rapid progress that administration were making, to divest them of their inherent privileges, endeavored to counteract them by the organization of the militia, but they were always defeated by the influence of the crown. The Congressional Register, 17 August 1789

"A distinction between the civil and military [is one] which it would be for the good of the whole to obliterate as soon as possible." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:90
It must be made a sacred maxim, that the militia obey the executive power, which represents the whole people in the execution of laws. To suppose arms in the hands of the citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self defense, or by partial orders of towns, counties, or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed, and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws. Adams, John, A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America,1787-88, p. 474-5

The Bill of Rights secures to the people the use of arms in common defense; so that, if it be an alienable right, one use of arms is secured to the people against any law of the legislature. The other purposes for which they might have been used in a state of nature, being a natural right, and not surrendered by the constitution, the people still enjoy, and [may?] continue to do so till the legislature shall think fit to interdict. "Scribble Scrabble," Cumberland Gazette, January 26, 1787; "Scribble-Scrabble," ibid., December 8, 1786

Mr. Madison has introduced his long expected amendments. They are the fruit of much labor and research. He has hunted up all the grievances and complaints of newspapers, all the articles of conventions, and the small talk of their debates. It contains a bill of rights, the right of enjoying property, of changing the government at pleasure, freedom of the press, of conscience, of juries, exemption from general warrants, gradual increase of representatives, till the whole number, at the rate of one to every thirty thousand, shall amount to ____, and allowing two to every State, at least. This is the substance. There is too much of it. Oh! I had forgot, the right of the people to bear arms.

Risum teneatic amici? [Hold your laughter, friends.]

Upon the whole, it may do some good towards quieting men, who attend to sounds only, and may get the mover [Madison] some popularity, which he wishes.
Fischer Ames, letter to Thomas Dwight, June 11, 1789

And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights. Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution 3:§ 1890

The legislature, therefore, have a right to prohibit the wearing or keeping weapons dangerous to the peace and safety of the citizens, and which are not usual in civilized warfare, or would not contribute to the common defense. The right to keep and bear arms for the common defence is a great political right. It respects the citizens on the one hand and the rulers on the other. And although this right must be inviolably preserved, yet, it does not follow that the legislature is prohibited altogether from passing laws regulating the manner in which these arms may be employed.

To hold that the legislature could pass no law upon this subject, by which to preserve the public peace, and protect our citizens from the terror, which a wanton and unusual exhibition of arms might produce, or their lives from being endangered by desperadoes with concealed arms, would be to pervert a great political right to the worst of purposes, and to make it a social evil, of infinitely a greater extent to society, than would result from abandoning the right itself. Aymette v. State, 21 Tenn. (2 Hump.) 154 (1840).


So, your right to be free from a large military establishment was of the highest importance!

17 March 2008

Square peg, round hole.

Tomorrow we may find out if the Supreme Court of the United States will, or will not, engage in the most outrageous act of judicial activism in the case of DC v. Heller.

The Second Amendment is not a guarantee of an individual right to own firearms, but a guarantee that standing armies will not be established. Every quote taken out of context by the "RKBA" crowd when read in its entirety shows that the issue was a fear of the establishment of a standing army. That is a large military-industrial complex. Think George W. Bush invading Iraq based upon false pretexts and you get the idea of what the founding fathers meant by tyranny.

Instead of preventing a massive military budget, the Second Amendment has been used to prevent any attempt for public safety through the regulation of firearms. Somehow, this fact has been missed by all those writing briefs. Maybe some Supreme Court justice's clerk reads my blog and this issue will be raised, but I think that this has been lost in the rhetoric. It's unfortunate. I hope that the issue of prevention of standing armies will be raised and addressed, but that hope may prove in vain.

The Declaration of Independence doesn't mention seizing private firearms, but it does mention keeping "standing armies in time of peace". Anytime the right of keeping and bearing arms is mentioned it is in the context of standing armies and how tyrants build large military machines. The militia is made effete and replaced by a standing army.

The Second Amendment is not as clear as most people believe. Interpreting it without knowing the context in which it was proposed and ratified may just produce the wrong conclusion. One needs to realize that our founding generation was deathly afraid of standing armies. As British citizens, they surely knew that it was only about a century since Oliver Cromwell had used Britain’s “New Model Army” with its red uniforms to overthrow the king and have himself installed as Lord Protector. They also knew that the kings in Europe, including their beloved George III, maintained power by keeping large standing armies to protect them. Even during our Revolution there were many Americans who feared George Washington’s Continental Army as a force that could impose a new tyranny after ousting the British. Militias of the people, however, could provide for the national and state defense without the dangers of a standing army.

The first statement of what later became the Second Amendment was contained as Article XIII of the Virginia Declaration of Rights. It read,

That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and be governed by, the civil power.

The phrase “That the people have a right to keep and bear arms” was added to this language in 1788 by the Virginia constitutional ratifying convention in its proposed bill of rights. The New York convention broke up the right into three paragraphs:

That the People have a right to keep and bear Arms; that a well regulated Militia, including the body of the People capable of bearing Arms, is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free State;
That the Militia should not be subject to Martial Law except in time of War, Rebellion or Insurrection.
That standing Armies in time of Peace are dangerous to Liberty, and ought not to be kept up, except in Cases of necessity; and that at all times, the Military should be under strict Subordination to the civil Power.


When James Madison submitted his version of the Bill of Rights to the Congress in 1789 the provision was close to its final language,

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.

The final version, adopted by the Congress and then sent to the states for ratification, reversed the order of the first two clauses and dropped the conscientious objector provision.

Thomas Jefferson was against a Constitution that did not contain a bill of rights to protect the people not against themselves, but from the federal government:
“I hope, therefore, a bill of rights will be formed to guard the people against the federal government as they are already guarded against their State governments, in most instances”
[Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98]. Jefferson was alarmed with the defects he found in the initial Constitution sent to him by Madison, and made it known he found it objectionable that there was no provision guarding against a standing army:
“I will now add what I do not like. First, the omission of a bill of rights providing clearly and without aid of sophisms for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, protection against standing armies…”


Elbridge Gerry said:

This declaration of rights, I take it, is intended to secure the people against the mal-administration of the Government; if we could suppose that, in all cases, the rights of the people would be attended to, the occasion for guards of this kind would be removed. Now, I am apprehensive, sir, that this clause would give an opportunity to the people in power to destroy the constitution itself. They can declare who are those religiously scrupulous, and prevent them from bearing arms.

What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. Now, it must be evident, that, under this provision, together with their other powers, Congress could take such measures with respect to a militia, as to make a standing army necessary. Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins.


In other words, the Second Amendment is not an individual right to bear anything, but a security of the people to keep and bear arms for purposes of maintaining public militias as a guard against a standing army. The House Committee on the Militia in December of 1833 had no illusion what the Second Amendment stood for when it considered modifying existing militia law in the several States to allow for the following:

…to permit each State in time of peace, in the discretion of its Legislature, to require no person to bear arms under twenty-one, or over forty years of age, and to permit the inspection of arms to be taken by companies instead of by regiments or battalions; and, also into the propriety and justice of providing arms and accoutrements at the public expense for those liable to bear arms…


First of all, it was recognized that such matters as to who can, or cannot bear arms, is up to the State legislature. If the Second Amendment was an outright individual protected right as some like to believe it is, then such proposed State laws would clearly be violating persons under the age of 21, and over the age of 40, right to bear arms under the Second Amendment.

Clearly then, the context of bearing arms is purely in a military service context since that is all the term “bear arms” imports. The term “bear arms” had the universal understanding of militarily taking up arms against another in aggression, which of course explains why there were people who were religiously scrupulous to bearing arms or supporting militias financially, but otherwise had no problem with personally owning private weapons. Quakers for example, refused to “bear arms” or contribute funds in support of the militia, yet had no objection to personally owning firearms.

President Andrew Jackson confirms the right under the Second only relates to the collective right to bear arms under militias for defense of the State: “To take from the people the right of bearing arms, and put their weapons of defence in the hands of a standing army, would be scarcely more dangerous to their liberties, than to permit the Government to accumulate immense amounts of treasure beyond the supplies necessary to its legitimate wants.”

The Second Amendment only qualifies bearing arms as part of the defense of the State, not personally, because it focuses only with the body of the people who make up the militias. There is no qualification to a right to private ownership because that would dwell into domestic concerns of a State, something the federal Constitution does not by design permit.

To me it is clear that the right to keep and bear arms must be read in conjunction with the founding generation’s determination to rely on militias, rather than a standing army, for national defense. Certainly the right to bear arms is a right of the people, not the state or federal governments. On the other hand, the right was clearly intended to guarantee the existence of militias, not for any other purpose. Further, the fact that we now are perfectly comfortable maintaining a standing army, navy, air force and marine corps and that our state militias have been themselves formalized into National Guards and Reserve components leads to the obvious conclusion is that the right to bear arms for the purpose of maintaining a strong national defense is no longer relevant in 2008.

Of course, judges are supposed to be free of the political fray which leads to the type of mess and confusion which the Second Amendment has found itself in the mind of the masses. Few are willing to discuss the true meaning of the Second Amendment as a guarantee against standing armies. On the other hand, will the justices raise this issue? There are commentators on the internet who do, but this seems lost in the piles of briefs pro and con in DC v Heller.

Additionally, the Supreme Court has ruled on this and found that the right is one to enable the body organised under the militia powers granted in Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution in US v. Miller. Miller was reiterated in US v. Rybar which stated that the same arguments which are being presented by Heller in this case were without merit. Which means that one Supreme Court Justice, Alito, has ruled upon this question and found the "individual right" argument without merit.

Given that my Second Amendment right is to be free from a large, standing military, that right is being violated in Washington, DC. Not by the District of Columbia's firearms laws, but by the legislature and executive by allowing the invasion of Iraq. To find that the Second Amendment allows for an individual right to own firearms unrelated to militia duty is to make logical leaps of outrageous proportion.

08 February 2008

Are logical fallacies a good reason to overturn precedent?

Yet another mass shooting has occurred in Missouri. This happened in a city council meeting where there were armed policemen, two of whom were shot before the gunman was killed. Virginia Tech happened in a state with liberal gun laws as well, including shall issue concealed carry.

Now, we have heard that concealed carry would prevent this and I have pointed out that shootings still happen. The Columbine shooters had a shootout with the school cop.

Part of the reason we have this mess is the fake statistics of John Lott and Gary Kleck. Both of which have been discredited, yet the gun lobby trots them out as truth. They even buttress their arguments with statistics which disprove those statistics (i.e., Cook and Ludwig).

I am hearing that the reason that the Supreme Court should find an individual right is that "it is popularly believed this right exists". Now, you can read my posts on argumentum ad populum and that it is a logical fallacy to base the truth of any proposition on the belief that it is popularly held true.

Add in that the "individual right" camp usually misquotes and takes quotes out of context. The arguments also use dicta rather than holdings (e.g. Dred Scot). In particular, they use the dicta in US v. Miller rather than the holding because it goes against their arguments:

The Constitution as originally adopted granted to the Congress power- 'To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.' U.S.C.A.Const. art. 1, 8. With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view. U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)


Nowhere is the term "self-defence" mentioned in the Second Amendment, or the debates surrounding the ratification of the Constitution. Self-defence is mentioned in similar State guarantees.

It is even sillier to posit that a document which is to keep domestic tranquility providing an institution which is to "execute the laws of the union and suppress insurrections" (the militia) and lists the only crime as being waging war against the United States (article III, Section iii) as allowing for a right to insurrection.

The real Second Amendment issue is not gun laws in Washington, DC, but the fact that National Guardsmen are being pressed into service in Iraq. Or as Justice Douglas said in Adams v. Williams, 407 U.S 143, 150 -51 (1972), which is a supreme court Second Amendment case which misses their list because it shows the contrary point of view:

The police problem is an acute one not because of the Fourth Amendment, but because of the ease with which anyone can acquire a pistol. A powerful lobby dins into the ears of our citizenry that these gun purchases are constitutional rights protected by the Second Amendment, which reads, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
There is under our decisions no reason why stiff state laws governing the purchase and possession of pistols may not be enacted. There is no reason why pistols may not be barred from anyone with a police record. There is no reason why a State may not require a purchaser of a pistol to pass a psychiatric test. There is no reason why all pistols should not be barred to everyone except the police.
The leading case is United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174, upholding a federal law making criminal the shipment in interstate commerce of a sawed-off shotgun. The law was upheld, there being no evidence that a sawed-off shotgun had "some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia." Id., at 178. The Second Amendment, it was held, "must be interpreted and applied" with the view of maintaining a "militia."


So, in a nutshell, there are more reasons that the Supreme Court should hold with the collective right interpretation, which is what the courts have been following for the over 60 years and similar amount of legal opinions.

There is no policy reason to find that a right which is to prevent standing armies should be interpreted as a licence for private ownership of firearms.